Fun_People Archive
20 Jan
Unhooking Windows from a laptop -- a true story
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From: Peter Langston <psl>
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 99 15:31:50 -0800
To: Fun_People
Precedence: bulk
Subject: Unhooking Windows from a laptop -- a true story
X-Lib-of-Cong-ISSN: 1098-7649
Forwarded-by: joev@archtop.com
Forwarded-by: Robin Harris <Robin.Harris@quantum.com>
Toshiba/Microsoft Saga
Geoffrey D. Bennett
geoffrey@netcraft.com.au
12/Aug/1998
I hope that this web page will prove useful to those people who want to
purchase a laptop without Microsoft Windows. The short summary is:
It is near impossible to buy a laptop without Windows
The Microsoft Software License Agreement allows you to return the
software if you do not agree to its terms.
It is difficult, but not impossible to get Toshiba (at least in
Australia) to send you a cheque in return for the Windows License.
I purchased a Toshiba notebook on February 2nd this year from my local
Linux-friendly supplier (Nick Stock at Cybernet Systems). Being the devoted
Linux user I am, I didn't want to pay for a copy of Microsoft Windows if I
wasn't going to use it. Unfortunately, Nick informed me that it was
impossible to purchase a Toshiba (or practically any brand of notebook)
without Windows coming along for the ride.
When I received the computer, I noted that the ``End User License Agreement
for Microsoft Software'' stated that I did not have to accept the
agreeement, and if I didn't agree to its terms, I could contact the
manufacturer for instructions on returning the software for a refund. That
seemed like just what I wanted, so I contacted Toshiba in Adelaide and spoke
with Kon Karanastasis.
Kon had apparently never heard of anyone wanting to return just the software
for a refund, so it took a while to explain what I wanted. "I want to give
you back the Microsoft software and receive a cheque in return", "We don't
do that", "But the license agreement that Toshiba supplied with my computer
says you will". Kon asked that I send him a letter explaining what I
wanted, along with a copy of the invoice for the notebook and he'd find out
what could be done.
Here's the letter:
NetCraft Australia
PO Box 390 Blackwood 5051
Phone: 08 8370 3650
Fax: 08 8278 8325
2 February 1998
Mr. Kon Karanastasis
Toshiba
5 Hurtle Square
Adelaide SA 5000
Dear Kon,
With reference to my phone call to you today, I have purchased a
Toshiba Satellite Pro laptop computer which included a copy of Microsoft
Windows 95 pre-installed. The ``End-User License Agreement For Microsoft
Software'' included with the computer states in part:
If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, PC Manufacturer and
Microsoft are unwilling to license the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to you. In
such event, you may not use or copy the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, and you
should promptly contact PC Manufacturer for instructions on return
of the unused products(s) for a refund.
I do not agree to the terms of the End-User License Agreement for the
Windows 95 software, and would like to return the software for a refund.
Please supply me with instructions on how to return the software.
As you requested, I have enclosed a copy of the invoice for the Toshiba
laptop computer.
Regards,
(signed)
Geoffrey D. Bennett
Computer Systems Manager
NetCraft Australia
Kon got back to me and the word from Sydney was that Toshiba would be happy
for me to return my notebook and receive a full refund, but they were not
willing to give me a refund on just the Microsoft Software. I explained that
this was unacceptable; the license agreement for the Software specifically
said that I could return just the Software. Too bad apparently; Toshiba have
a contractual agreement with Microsoft where they can't unbundle the
software from the hardware, therefore they wouldn't give me a refund.
I obviously wasn't happy with this, so Kon said that the person to talk to
was Laurence White from Product Planning in Toshiba. I sent him email
explaining the situation:
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 1998 16:25:06 +1030 (CST)
From: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <g@netcraft.com.au>
To: laurence_white@isd.toshiba.com.au
Subject: Return of unused software
Dear Laurence,
Kon Karanastasis from Toshiba in Adelaide said that I should contact
you regarding the return of the unused Microsoft software that came
with my Toshiba laptop.
On the 2nd of February this year, I purchased a Toshiba Satellite Pro
laptop computer which included a copy of Microsoft Windows 95
pre-installed. The ``End-User License Agreement For Microsoft
Software'' that was included with my computer states in part:
If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, PC Manufacturer and
Microsoft are unwilling to license the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to you. In
such event, you may not use or copy the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, and you
should promptly contact PC Manufacturer for instructions on return
of the unused products(s) for a refund.
I did not agree to the terms of the End-User License Agreement for the
Microsoft software, so I refrained from using the software, and I
completely removed it without creating any backup.
I would now like to return the unused software product for a refund.
Could you please supply me with instructions on how to return the
software and obtain a refund.
Regards,
--
Geoffrey D. Bennett (geoffrey@netcraft.com.au)
Computer Systems Manager, NetCraft Australia
http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/
Red Hat Linux Resellers: http://www.netcraft.com.au/redhat/
Laurence told me essentially the same thing that Kon did. I can return the
notebook, but I can't return just the Software:
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 98 10:08:40
From: "laurence white" <laurence_white@isd.toshiba.com.au>
To: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <g@netcraft.com.au>
Subject: Re: Return of unused software
Hello Geoffrey,
I am the Toshiba Product Manager and am responsible for all
notebooks.
The EULA you have received is a generic Microsoft document supplied
by all manufacturers as proof of the purchase of your operating
system.
As you can see in the wording of the text you need to contact a
vendor for instructions and Toshiba is unwilling to refund the cost
of the operating system.
Toshiba is required by Microsoft contract to provide and purchase
a valid operating system. Toshiba cannot get a refund from
Microsoft.
I hope you can understand our position. Toshiba must pay Microsoft
at point of manufacture and cannot get a refund from Microsoft, so
we can't refund you.
If we gave you a refund on the operating system component then
Toshiba cannot claim this on Microsoft.
I hope this explains our position with Microsoft Software.
Regards
Laurie White
Toshiba Australia
(my original message was included here)
If at first you don't succeed... so I asked again, explaining why his
reasons for refusing a refund were not valid:
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 02:26:22 +1030 (CST)
From: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <g@netcraft.com.au>
To: laurence_white@isd.toshiba.com.au (laurence white)
Subject: Re: Return of unused software
Hi Laurie,
Thank you for your reply to my message regarding the return of unused
Microsoft software. Although I understand Toshiba's position, it is
not acceptable for reasons I give below, and therefore, I would like
to request for the second time you to send me instructions on how to
return the unused Microsoft software to Toshiba and obtain a refund
for that software.
You wrote:
> Hello Geoffrey,
>
> I am the Toshiba Product Manager and am responsible for all
> notebooks.
>
> The EULA you have received is a generic Microsoft document supplied
> by all manufacturers as proof of the purchase of your operating system.
I'm not sure how this is relevant? The EULA certainly is my proof of
purchase, but it is a lot more than that. The EULA states the terms
under which the software is to be licensed to me under. I have
rejected those terms, and according to the agreement I may not use or
copy the software and I should return it for a refund.
The EULA is the document that specifically says that PC Manufacturer
(Toshiba in this case) and Microsoft are unwilling to license the
software to me, and I should contact Toshiba for instructions on
returning the software for a refund.
> As you can see in the wording of the text you need to contact a
> vendor for instructions and Toshiba is unwilling to refund the cost
> of the operating system.
Toshiba might be unwilling this month to refund the cost of the
operating system to me, but the EULA which was sent to me last month
by Toshiba with the computer when I purchased it does not include a
provision for you to reject my claim for a refund.
If Toshiba were not willing to refund the cost of unwanted software to
me when I purchased the product, Toshiba should not have supplied me
with a license agreement that states that I can return the software
for a refund.
> Toshiba is required by Microsoft contract to provide and purchase
> a valid operating system. Toshiba cannot get a refund from Microsoft.
The agreement between Toshiba and Microsoft is irrelevant to me.
The agreement between myself, Toshiba, and Microsoft says that I can
return the product for a refund. Whether or not Toshiba can then
receive a refund from Microsoft is really none of my business.
> I hope you can understand our position. Toshiba must pay Microsoft
> at point of manufacture and cannot get a refund from Microsoft, so
> we can't refund you.
>
> If we gave you a refund on the operating system component then
> Toshiba cannot claim this on Microsoft.
>
> I hope this explains our position with Microsoft Software.
I do understand your position, but if Toshiba enter into an agreement
with Microsoft where Toshiba is required to purchase Microsoft software
for each notebook, then Toshiba should be willing to wear the cost of
that software if I do not want to purchase that software from you.
Surely the discounts obtained by purchasing Microsoft software with
every notebook manufactured far outweigh the cost associated with me
not wanting to purchase the Microsoft software from Toshiba? If they
don't, perhaps Toshiba should review their agreement with Microsoft.
I look forward to your reply.
Regards,
Geoffrey.
(my original message was included here)
--
Geoffrey D. Bennett (geoffrey@netcraft.com.au)
Computer Systems Manager, NetCraft Australia
http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/
Red Hat Linux Resellers: http://www.netcraft.com.au/redhat/
He obviously didn't like my arguments:
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 98 09:38:15
From: "laurence white" <laurence_white@isd.toshiba.com.au>
To: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <g@netcraft.com.au>
Subject: Re[2]: Return of unused software
Geoffrey,
Toshiba is happy for you to return the complete computer system for a
refund to the place of purchase. We are not willing to sell just the
computer system to you.
If you have any further questions regarding this matter you will need
to talk with our legal department.
Regards
Laurie White
(my first reply was included here)
I called the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) who said
that selling one product bundled with another as Toshiba are doing is an
okay thing to do, and then I called Consumer Affairs who suggested I see a
lawyer. I ended up going to see someone from the Legal Services Commission
who said that I could take my case to the small claims court and I'd
probably win, but if I didn't then I'd be up for their expenses (plane trip
from Sydney plus hotel accomodation). I definately didn't want to take that
risk, so I decided to give in.
By this time, the model of notebook I had purchased was discontinued (it
had been about two months since I purchased it) and the next model up was
$700 cheaper than what I had paid for mine. Since Toshiba were offering me
the chance to return the entire computer, this was obviously a good deal.
They were effectively offering me $700 and a notebook upgrade :-). I didn't
really want to pursue this option, since I would still be paying for a copy
of Microsoft Windows that I didn't want (it's the principle of the thing!),
but I didn't see any other option.
So I contacted Nick, who was quite happy to take the computer back from me
provided that his supplier would take it back from him. Unfortunately, his
supplier didn't like this idea and were quite ticked off that Toshiba would
say to me that I could return a pre-loved, two-month old, and discontinued
computer at their expense. They wanted to know who at Toshiba told me this.
I then get email (quite unexpectedly) from Kon Karanastasis, who wrote:
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 98 13:46:11
From: "kon karanastasis" <kon_karanastasis@isd.toshiba.com.au>
To: geoffrey@netcraft.com.au
Subject: Return of Unused Software
Dear Geoffrey
In respect to your formal request for a refund for unused software on
your Toshiba Laptop Computer the matter is currently being assessed by
our General Affairs Division.
Before they reach a final decision they have asked me the following
questions in respect to your purchase ;
1. Mr Bennett states that he purchased the computer on 2nd
February 1998.
From whom did Mr Bennett purchase the computer?
2. Did he rely on a brochure in making his decision?
3. At the time of purchase did he notify the vendor that he did
not want the standard MS operating system?
4. Did Mr Bennett read the End User License Agreement prior to
turning on the Computer for the first time?
5. Mr Bennett states that he "refrained from using the
software, and .... completely removed it without creating
any backup". How was this accomplished? When was the
Operating System deleted?
6. Has the computer been used between the dates of 2nd February
1998 and 3rd March 1998? If in the affirmative, utilising
what operating system?
If you could please provide answers to these questions, I will ensure
a speedy resolution of this issue.
Regards
Kon Karanastasis
Toshiba ISD
Email Add : Kon_Karanastasis@isd.toshiba.com.au
Phone : 08 8223 2878
Fax : 08 8232 5022
I thought that the above message was a bit strange, since I hadn't talked
to Kon for quite a while now, and I wasn't asking them consider a refund
for the unused software anymore. I wrote the following email back:
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 1998 15:42:33 +0930 (CST)
From: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <g@netcraft.com.au>
To: kon_karanastasis@isd.toshiba.com.au (kon karanastasis)
Subject: Re: Return of Unused Software
Dear Kon,
You wrote:
> Dear Geoffrey
>
> In respect to your formal request for a refund for unused software on
> your Toshiba Laptop Computer the matter is currently being assessed by
> our General Affairs Division.
I'm a bit confused here, because my refund for unused software has been
assessed and denied three times already, each time with an offer for
me to return the entire computer, and the last time also telling me
that I'd need to contact Toshiba's Legal Department if I wanted to take
the issue of returning just the software any further. After the three
refusals, I decided to take up the multiple offers of returning the
computer, so I contacted my supplier to arrange doing so.
Are Toshiba now reconsidering the refund for the unused software? If
so, that is fine, but if it is refused (for the fourth time), I will
be again wanting to take you up on your offer for me to return the
entire computer.
> Before they reach a final decision they have asked me the following
> questions in respect to your purchase ;
>
> 1. Mr Bennett states that he purchased the computer on 2nd
> February 1998.
>
> From whom did Mr Bennett purchase the computer?
I purchased the computer from Nicholas Stock at Cybernet Systems
(017 864 264). I sent you a copy of the invoice on February 2nd.
> 2. Did he rely on a brochure in making his decision?
No, I didn't rely on a brochure in making my decision. I read many
brochures, viewed many web pages, and talked to many people when
deciding which notebook to purchase.
> 3. At the time of purchase did he notify the vendor that he did
> not want the standard MS operating system?
My vendor was aware before I purchased the computer that I did not want
the standard MS operating system. My vendor had already informed me
that it was not possible to have Windows removed from the computer
before purchasing it.
> 4. Did Mr Bennett read the End User License Agreement prior to
> turning on the Computer for the first time?
I did. The license agrement said that if I did not agree to its terms,
Toshiba and Microsoft were unwilling to license the software to me,
and I could return the software for a refund. Therefore, I did not
use the software, and I contacted Kon to arrange a refund.
> 5. Mr Bennett states that he "refrained from using the
> software, and .... completely removed it without creating
> any backup". How was this accomplished? When was the
> Operating System deleted?
I removed the operating system by connecting the floppy disk drive,
inserting a Red Hat Linux boot floppy, turning on the computer,
deleting all partitions on the hard disk, and installing Linux. I did
this on the same day I received the computer.
> 6. Has the computer been used between the dates of 2nd February
> 1998 and 3rd March 1998? If in the affirmative, utilising
> what operating system?
Yes, the computer has been used the entire time I have had it. The
operating system used has been the Red Hat Linux operating system.
> If you could please provide answers to these questions, I will ensure
> a speedy resolution of this issue.
Thank you,
--
Geoffrey D. Bennett (geoffrey@netcraft.com.au)
Computer Systems Manager, NetCraft Australia
http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/
Red Hat Linux Resellers: http://www.netcraft.com.au/redhat/
The next day I received email back from Kon:
Date: Fri, 03 Apr 98 13:14:32
From: "kon karanastasis" <kon_karanastasis@isd.toshiba.com.au>
To: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <g@netcraft.com.au>
Subject: RE: Return of Unused Software
Geoffrey
Toshiba's General Affairs Division have assessed your claim for a
refund of the unused Microsoft Software.
Toshiba is prepared to offer you $110.00 (AUS) as a refund for not
using the bundled software.
Please confirm your acceptance (or otherwise) of this offer and we will
implement the appropriate actions to settle this matter.
Regards
Kon Karanastasis
(the message he replied to was included here)
Since this was exactly what I was wanting, I wrote back:
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:21:43 +0930 (CST)
From: "Geoffrey D. Bennett" <g@netcraft.com.au>
To: kon_karanastasis@isd.toshiba.com.au (kon karanastasis)
Subject: Re: Return of Unused Software
> Geoffrey
>
> Toshiba's General Affairs Division have assessed your claim for a
> refund of the unused Microsoft Software.
>
> Toshiba is prepared to offer you $110.00 (AUS) as a refund for not
> using the bundled software.
>
> Please confirm your acceptance (or otherwise) of this offer and we
> will implement the appropriate actions to settle this matter.
Hi Kon,
That sounds good. Let me know what the next step is.
Regards,
--
Geoffrey D. Bennett (geoffrey@netcraft.com.au)
Computer Systems Manager, NetCraft Australia
http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/
Red Hat Linux Resellers: http://www.netcraft.com.au/redhat/
Time passed, and I called Kon to find out what was happening to my cheque.
He explained that in big companies, weird things like giving money to
customers for return of Microsoft software can take a while to happen. A
little later I received email from him:
Date: Thu, 07 May 98 14:51:43 +1000
From: "KON KARANASTASIS"<kon_karanastasis@tap.toshiba.com.au>
To: <geoffrey@netcraft.com.au>
Subject: Refund for Unused Software
Geoffrey
I've followed up the progress of your refund cheque.
I still can't give you a definite date, however, I think I've managed
to put some higher priority on your claim.
Hopefully it should all be resolved within a fortnight.
Regards
Kon Karanastasis
Email : Kon_Karanastasis@tap.toshiba.com.au
And then the email I was waiting for:
Date: Thu, 21 May 98 10:46:44 +1000
From: "KON KARANASTASIS"<kon_karanastasis@tap.toshiba.com.au>
To: <geoffrey@netcraft.com.au>
Subject: Refund Cheque
Hi Geoffrey
Your refund cheque has arrived in Adelaide.
If you would like to return all documentation/software relating to MS
Windows to our office at 5 Hurtle Square you can pick up your cheque.
Regards
Kon Karanastasis
I couldn't pick up the cheque immediately because I had just left for Linux
Expo, but when I got back I wasn't in any particular hurry to get the cheque
because it was the principle of the thing, not the money. After some
hassling from a couple of LinuxSA members at the July meeting, I finally
went to Toshiba on the 10th of August to pick up my cheque.
Lo and behold, I now have a cheque for $110 from Toshiba in return for an
unused license for Microsoft Windows!
Many thanks to:
Paul Ashton (of Samba fame). Paul was the one who told me in January
that when I purchase a laptop I should read the Microsoft Licence Agreement,
and take note of the bit about a refund.
Kon Karanastasis at Toshiba for being patient with such a strange
request.
Nick Stock at Cybernet Systems for being an all-round good guy.
No thanks to:
Laurence White at Toshiba for three times denying my request for
Toshiba to honour the license agreement they included with my computer.
If there's anyone else wanting to do a similar thing, I think that the
important things are:
Check the license agreement. Look for something like ``If you do not
agree to the terms of this EULA, PC Manufacturer and Microsoft are unwilling
to license the SOFTWARE PRODUCT to you. In such event, you may not use or
copy the SOFTWARE PRODUCT, and you should promptly contact PC Manufacturer
for instructions on return of the unused products(s) for a refund.''
As the first thing you do with the computer, boot from a floppy and
delete the Windows partition immediately. If you boot Windows even once,
you will probably be considered to have accepted the agreement.
Contact your manufacturer immediately, and say that you do not agree
to the terms of the EULA and would like instructions on return of the
unused Microsoft Software for a refund.
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© 1999 Peter Langston
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